House Game & Fisheries Committee Hearing

6-9-05

The House Game and Fisheries Committee held a public hearing on HB 904, regarding Sunday Hunting on 6-9-05. The hearing will be replayed on PCN at various times in the upcoming days. It can also be viewed on-line on PCN's web site: www.pcntv.com

Click here for PFSC’s Testimony 

HB 904 Sunday Hunting Hearing
June 9, 2005

HB 904 Staback - Amends Title 34 (Game) deleting section 2303 relating to Sunday hunting prohibition, thereby granting the PA Game Commission the authority to decide when hunting may occur.

Members in attendance included Chairmen Bruce Smith (R-York) and Ed Staback (D-Lackawanna), and Representatives Mark Keller (R-Perry), Curt Sonney (R-Erie), Dan Surra (D-Elk), Neal Goodman (D-Schuylkill), Keith Gillespie (R-York), Tina Pickett (R-Bradford), Marc Gergely (D-Allegheny), Matt Good (R-Erie), Mark McNaughton (R-Dauphin), Paul Costa (D-Allegheny), Mike Hanna (D-Clinton) and Chris Sainato (D-Lawrence).

Chairman Smith opened the meeting by noting that he only invited organizations to testify today.

Democratic Chair Staback further explained that he would like to only hear testimony on the bill, not on the issue of Sunday hunting. He stressed that the legislation does not advocate for Sunday hunting, it merely grants the PA Game Commission (PGC) the authority to make game management decisions regarding when and where hunters may hunt.

Vernon Ross, Executive Director of the PGC, testified first. Ross stated the PGC does not oppose legislation to legalize Sunday hunting, noting that the Game Commissioners are split on the issue. Regarding granting the PGC regulatory authority regarding seasons, he stated "anytime the General Assembly wants to give greater authority to the PGC, we would welcome that responsibility." He noted that if the legislation is enacted, the Commission would gather input from biologists and the public and give thoughtful consideration to any decisions regarding seasons and bag limits.

Chairman Smith asked about agreements made with horseback riders. Ross replied agreements were reached to prohibit horseback riding in game lands during the fall hunting season. He noted that any consideration given to Sunday hunting would include research into what species may be harvested. Chairman Smith asked how species populations would be affected by the extended hunting season, noting that hunters already find deer in short supply. Ross replied any determination would be selective and perhaps would allow more hunting in those areas with overpopulation issues.

Rep. Staback asked how a decision to expand the season would be reached. Ross replied the PGC would first consider the species that would be hunted, and would also look at how society would be impacted and where expanded hunting could be implemented. He noted that public input would be sought through public hearings and letters. He stated there would be "a tremendous education program".

Rep. Sonney asked how past polling on the issue of Sunday hunting has been conducted. Ross replied the PGC contracts with companies to conduct surveys. He noted that in a recent survey, hunters were asked if they support Sunday hunting with a yes/no format.

Rep. Surra noted that only seven states do not have Sunday hunting and those states that recently implemented it have moved toward full Sunday hunting because they ultimately found that the negative prophesies against Sunday hunting did not occur. He asked how the minds of PA landowners can be put at ease. Ross replied most people just don't want to be bothered on Sunday. But, he noted, many hunters seek permission to hunt on private land well in advance. He stated that guarantees need to be created to ensure property rights are maintained.

Rep. Pickett remarked that hunting is an economic generator, especially in her district. She asked if the Commission has a vision of how to increase non-resident license sales if Sunday hunting is implemented. Ross remarked that traveling to hunt can be very expensive and hunters are choosing to hunt closer to home as those costs increase. He remarked that creating a two-day hunting weekend could encourage hunters to travel.

Rep. Goodman remarked that the number of hunters is declining, as the next generation of hunters feels they simply do not have the time to hunt. He noted that if a student participates in a sport, he/she is expected to be at practice six days a week to play in the games; this leaves no time for hunting.

Rep. Gergely dismissed the argument that Sunday hunting will hurt the deer population, noting that when Ohio instituted Sunday hunting, the size of the harvest did not increase, it was more spread out. He also cited several informal surveys among sportsmen indicating strong support for Sunday hunting and remarked that PA is losing money because hunters are going to Ohio to hunt. Lastly, Rep. Gergely noted that Ohio's law implementing Sunday hunting includes a sunset provision and he asked if the PGC would support that for PA. Ross replied that he would not be opposed, noting that it worked well in Ohio.

Rep. Hanna expressed concern about wildlife management and asked that it be kept as a priority above social impact. Ross agreed that wildlife management is the PGC's first priority.

Rep. Gillespie asked about comments that landowners would leave the PGC programs and post their land. Ross replied landowners have not been surveyed on the issue, however many have contacted the Commission. He noted that he tells landowners they will maintain control over their property.
Chairman Smith asked if the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee study of the impact of Sunday hunting (which will be released next week) questioned co-op owners. Ross stated, yes.

Melody Zullinger, Executive Director of the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), stated PFSC opposes blanket Sunday hunting for all species, but noted that the level of opposition varies from club to club. She also expressed concern with transferring authority over the season to the PGC, citing its poor financial situation, and indicated that the General Assembly could penalize the PGC if it makes a decision the General Assembly does not support.

Zullinger concluded by noting Sunday hunting is a personal issue that people feel very strongly about.

Chairman Smith asked if HB 904 has been specifically addressed by the full PFSC, and if not, when. Zullinger replied the bill was discussed at the spring convention, but an official vote was not taken. She stated she conducted an unofficial phone/email poll and respondents decidedly opposed the legislation. PFSC is expected to formally vote on the bill in September.

Rep. Staback noted that the unofficial poll was conducted on about 100 of 97,000 members, and can hardly be considered representative. He asked Zullinger to make sure that the bill is brought up at the next PFSC meeting. He then asked why PFSC opposes shifting authority to the PGC, noting that they have testified in support of the Commission's management. Zullinger replied she could not speak for her members, as the issue has not been fully discussed, but reiterated that Sunday hunting is a personal issue and most do not separate the issue from the bill, regardless what the bill actually does.

Rep. Gergely asked about the National Rifle Association's (NRA) role with PFSC. Zullinger replied PFSC is the NRA's approved organization for legislative issues. Rep. Gergely then asked if votes at PFSC meetings are proportional based on population or one county, one vote. Zullinger replied it is one county, one vote. She acknowledged this isn't a perfect system.

Rep. Goodman asked who should be responsible for making the decision regarding seasons, indicating the PFSC has been contradictory on the subject. Zullinger opined that the PGC should be responsible, to which Rep. Goodman asked why PFSC opposes HB 904. Zullinger clarified she personally believes the PGC should have the authority, but her membership opposes the bill because they do not view Sunday hunting as a “management” issue.

Rep. Surra remarked that the number of hunters is declining and asked if placing authority with the PGC could increase the number of junior licenses. Zullinger stated she personally believes more time during which one may hunt is important, but reiterated that she must speak for her members.

Chairman Smith asked how many members are in PFSC. Zullinger replied the federation consists of 333 affiliated clubs that represent an aggregate of 97,000 sportsmen.

Joel Rotz, State Governmental Relations Director of the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau (PFB), offered that his organization represents 37,000 families. He noted since hunting is already permitted in Pennsylvania, his organization's members believe "There should be no further expansion of Sunday hunting." Most concerns about Sunday hunting reflect farmers' wishes to have one day per week that they can enjoy some privacy, he told the Committee. Rotz added that having hunters knocking on your door without notice can be more frustrating than "telemarketers calling at dinner time." He suggested that it does little good to open Sunday hunting if the land you wish to hunt remains closed. He concluded that any outcomes of these committee proceedings should be based on the needs and wants of the majority of those affected by the decision. Rotz noted that PFB opposes HB 904 because of the Sunday hunting issue, but has not formally discussed placing authority to make the decision with the PGC. The bill will be discussed at the next PFB meeting.

Wilmer Lehman, a farmer from Franklin County and member of the PFB, stated Sunday hunting is a great concern to the farming community. He offered that last year, the Farm Bureau debated a policy to allow groundhog hunting on Sunday. Although groundhogs are a big problem for most farmers, he said, the delegates overwhelmingly wanted to keep the current policy, and not allow any further expansion of Sunday hunting. "Our members felt that Farm Bureau needed to keep our policy position, and not further 'crack the door' open to expand Sunday hunting," he stated. He then said a farm is not just a large piece of property; it is someone's home. Farmers want one day in the week to use their properties during hunting seasons without gunfire and trespassing hunters, Lehman added. He concluded that due to these concerns, farmers say they will post their properties and deny all access if Sunday hunting is allowed.

Chairman Smith noted that increasing penalties for trespassing alleviated concerns among farmers in Ohio. He asked if PFB would modify its stance on Sunday hunting if such laws to protect property owners are also enacted. Rotz replied that PFB members have been asked that, but they steadfastly remain opposed to Sunday hunting.

Rep. Staback asked if farmers are threatening to post their land against just Sunday hunting or all hunting if Sunday hunting is legalized. Wilmer replied that he would likely post his land if enacted, but would probably allow hunters who ask permission onto his land. He noted that hunting is a good way to control wildlife. Rep. Staback agreed with this, commenting that all hunters should ask permission before hunting on private land. He then asked if PFB would discourage posting, noting that Rotz stated PFB would not encourage posting. Rotz replied PFB is a strong property rights organization, but remarked that it likely will oppose posting unless its members specifically ask. Lastly, Rep. Staback asked how to respond to groups that are unwilling to give the PGC the tools necessary to resolve problems regarding herd size. Rotz replied other solutions are available, such as extending the seasons. He stated farmers just want one day a week free from hunters.

Rep. Goodman asked if PFB is more comfortable with the General Assembly or the PGC making season decisions. Rotz replied PFB generally feels such issues should be in the hands of the Commission, but noted there are financial motives to enacting Sunday hunting that the Commission may be more susceptible to.

Rep. Gergely asked if outdoor activities are being opposed for religious reasons. Lehman noted that some groups, like the Amish and Mennonites, oppose any activities on Sunday that could be done on Saturday or Monday. Rep. Gergely then remarked that the members of the General Assembly are not management scientists like the PGC, adding that the legislation would grant the PGC additional tools to create hunting opportunities while managing wildlife. Rotz replied PFB is concerned about the decline in the numbers of hunters, but will not change their position.

Rep. Surra asked PFB to keep an open mind and work with the Commission to find some middle ground on the issue. He then asked if PFB has spoken with similar groups in states that have implemented Sunday hunting. Rotz replied he spoke with people in Maryland when the state implemented Sunday hunting in a few counties, mostly where opposition was low. Rep. Surra asked that more states be contacted.

Rep. Gillespie asked what percentage of farmers is represented by PFB. Rotz replied there are 52,000 farms in PA and 37,000 farmers are members of PFB, including some Amish and Mennonite groups. He noted that some farmers own more than one farm.

Rep. Staback asked why PFB fears PGC having authority to make decisions regarding seasons. Rotz replied the issue relates to Sunday hunting and opens the issue up to discussion. He remarked that PGC has more to gain from Sunday hunting than the General Assembly. Rotz noted that PFB does not have an official position on who should have authority; it simply opposes anything regarding Sunday hunting.

Chairman Smith noted that SB 539, which increases penalties for trespassing, was passed out of the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee yesterday, and suggested that PFB look at the bill.

Ed Wentzler, Legislative Director for the United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania, said that in 2004 his organization polled its membership on the issue Sunday hunting. He noted that the poll showed 69% of the members support any form of Sunday hunting. He cited the following comments his organization's members provided about Sunday hunting: it would provide more recreational time afield for families, Sunday hunting should be opened for archers only, if it is legalized it should be legalized statewide, and Sunday hunting would help manage the deer herd. The United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania believe Sunday hunting is long overdue in Pennsylvania, he said. He concluded that approving Sunday hunting would not prevent a private property owner from disallowing Sunday hunting on their land. He noted that his organization has 3,873 members.

Rep. Staback asked if the United Bowhunters are part of the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. Wentzler replied no.

Rep. Surra asked for thoughts on how farmers could be convinced that Sunday hunting will not harm them, as has been evidenced in other states. Wentzler had no specific ideas, but noted that bowhunters work to develop relationships with landowners.

Hugh Downing, President of the Keystone Trails Association, explained that his organization is made up of 30,000 people dedicated to preserving, protecting and promoting recreational hiking opportunities in Pennsylvania. He noted that 10 weekends each year his organization's members work to maintain footpaths across the state, keeping them in shape for people who walk in the woods, including those who hunt and fish. He stated that the Keystone Trails Association opposes any legislation that would change the current regulations with regard to Sunday hunting. Downing stated the Association feels permitting hunting on Sundays is "dangerous and unfair to tens of thousands of people who seek recreation in Penn's Woods." Many people avoid hunter interference by scheduling hikes and activities in the woods on Sundays, he said, adding that hunters have the woods for six days a week and urged the Committee to "keep one day safe and available for the rest of us." Downing noted that the General Assembly has a different constituency than the PGC and therefore may be more sensitive to the will of all Pennsylvanians, not just hunters.

Chairman Smith stated 70% of his constituents oppose Sunday hunting expansion, noting that non-hunters are very tolerant of hunters. He remarked that expansion could be "a public relations disaster." The Chairman also commented that Downing's remarks about the different constituencies are very accurate. He then asked if the Keystone Trails Association specifically voted on HB 904. Downing replied they have not voted on the specific bill, but oppose any legislation that would open public lands to Sunday hunting.

Rep. Staback asked Downing if he has evidence that allowing hunting on Sundays would be more dangerous, as he indicated in his testimony. Downing did not have specific statistics, but noted that there would be more opportunities. He remarked that hikers find the safety of Sunday comforting.

Rep. Gergely commented that he is unaware of problems between hikers and hunters in other states that allow Sunday hunting. He noted that a recent DCNR study on tourism in PA revealed that tourism levels are the lowest during the hunting seasons of November and December and tourists have the forests to themselves the other months of the year. Downing countered there is more than one hunting season. He suggested that hunting seasons be extended to provide more opportunities, but not to Sunday. Rep. Gergely replied that education is necessary; noting that the hunting season is only a small portion of the year.

Rep. Goodman agreed with Downing's comments that many trails have been created on state game lands, but noted that hunters paid for those lands and have the ultimate right of access to them. He noted that rifle season is in December, when very few individuals are hiking. Downing countered that often hunters ask that more trails be built on state game lands.

David Laden, President of the Pennsylvania State Fish and Game Protective Association, expressed his organization's opinion that Sunday hunting should be enacted. He noted that six years ago the House Game and Fisheries Committee held hearings all over Pennsylvania and heard every argument both pro and con about the issue. "If deer are to be managed in an efficient way, if deer are to be managed by hunting, then this artificial impediment to hunter participation must be removed," he told the committee. He concluded that the opposition to Sunday hunting is in fact, opposition to the future of hunting itself. Laden noted that his organization has 600 members.

Chairman Smith asked how the Association reached a decision on its position on the legislation. Laden replied they long ago passed a resolution in favor of Sunday hunting. He noted no opposition was expressed.
Rep. Gergely noted there were no problems with implementing Sunday fishing and remarked that there is an unfounded misconception about Sunday hunting.

Ralph Saggiomo, of the Unified Sportsmen of PA (USP), testified that Sunday hunting should have been implemented long ago, suggesting that PA is behind the times. He noted that if Sunday hunting is implemented, PGC must ensure the number of hunting days is balanced with the strength of the species population. Saggiomo concluded by stating Sunday hunting is needed because PA is losing hunters due to time and social constraints.

Chairman Smith asked about the membership of the USP and how its decision of support was reached. Saggiomo replied the executive board formed a committee to research the issue, polled its members, and then made a final decision. He noted they have a membership of 40,000.
Rep. Staback asked if the poll was specifically for HB 904. Saggiomo replied PGC should have the opportunity to control species, time and places, and expressed his support for the bill.

Rep. Gillespie asked how many of the members hunter on public or private lands. Saggiomo estimated the majority hunt on public lands.

Rep. Gergely remarked that a coalition of supporters should be formed to gain more support for Sunday hunting and to stand strong against opposition. Saggiomo agreed, stating, "The time is now."

John Pawlowski, of the PA State Archery Association, was scheduled to testify, but was unable to attend due to an emergency.

Norm Aten, Philadelphia County Chapter of the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs was also scheduled to testify, but Chairman Smith decided against it because PFSC had already testified. 

(Note:  The Philadelphia Chapter is currently not a paid member of PFSC, and was there to testify in support of the bill.)

Chairman Smith also noted that the National Turkey Federation and NRA have submitted testimony to the Committee in support of the legislation and the PA State Grange has submitted testimony in opposition to the legislation.

Before adjourning the meeting, the Chairman noted that the Committee will be meeting again next week to hear the results of the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee's study on the impact of Sunday hunting and another meeting will be held August 9th with the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee on the financial situation of the PGC.

Upcoming events:
Tuesday, June 14th, House Agriculture and rural Affairs Committee to consider HB 1580. HB 1580 would create “cervidae livestock operations” under the Dept. of Agriculture and remove provisions in Title 34 relating to these operations.

Wednesday, June 15th, Legislative Budget and Finance Committee reports on the use of shotguns vs. rifles and the economic impact of Sunday hunting. The House Game & Fisheries Committee receives those reports the following day.

Wednesday, June 22nd, House Game & Fisheries Committee meets to consider two bills, HB 1689 and HB 1690 the “coyote package”. One would allow electrical decoys for coyote hunting and the other permit baiting of coyotes.

Tuesday, August 9th, a joint hearing of the House and Senate Game & Fisheries Committee on the PGC’s financial situation.

(Note: The above report was provided by PA Legislative Services)