Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing on Urban (Gun) Violence

Reports provided by PA Legislative Services

9-25-06

HARRISBURG - (9/25/06, 10:00 a.m., Room 8E-B, East Wing)

Report prepared by PLS for PFSC:

The Senate Judiciary Committee held a public hearing on urban violence.

Members in attendance included Chairman Stewart Greenleaf (R-Montgomery) and Senators John Gordner (R-Columbia), Jane Earll (R-Erie), Mike Stack (D-Philadelphia), LeAnna Washington (D-Philadelphia), Michael O'Pake (D-Berks) and Jay Costa (D-Allegheny).

Chairman Greenleaf remarked this is the fourth and final hearing the Committee has held on this issue in recent months and these hearings have revealed that "there is a growing concern for public safety as a hardened culture of drugs, drug money and guns…appears to be taking hold." He stated the Committee has received several solutions from testifiers, and is open to hearing all ideas.

Opening Remarks of Senator Stewart J. Greenleaf

September 25,2006

On behalf of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I welcome you to the fourth and final public hearing that the committee has conducted over the last few months on the subject of urban violence.

After hearings in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Altoona, we have learned that in small cities, as well as in large, there is a growing concern for public safety as a hardened culture of drugs, drug money, and guns-sometimes exacerbated by drug pushers from outside the state--appears to be taking hold. Unfortunately, new recruits to this menacing culture come from the vulnerable population of children without guidance and without a vision of a better way. Many of these young people end up as statistics in growing city homicide rates. Even more troubling are the deaths of the innocent bystanders when drive-bys occur or when shooting breaks out between rivals on the street.

This committee has been offered many solutions from witnesses. These range from stricter gun control measures to more police patrols, and from stronger social programs to stronger incarceration policies to keep repeat violent offenders off the streets. For almost every proposed solution, it seems that there has been a counter solution, but this committee is open to hearing from all witnesses willing to offer their ideas. And so, we will begin today's hearing by calling on our first witness.

Captain Bret Waggoner, Director, Special Investigations Division, Bureau of Criminal Investigations, PA State Police, started by saying that gang activities have a detrimental affect on Pennsylvania. He went on to say that the PA Coalition against Crime and Delinquency is fighting to end gang crimes. Waggoner stated that the gang member's ages can be as young as 12, 14 or 16 years of age, and these juveniles are committing senseless and brazen acts of violence. Waggoner added that there are four hour training blocks designed for state troopers to focus on gang violence that is mandatory for all troopers to attend. He also pointed out that the PA State Police have also initiated a program that includes regional task forces consisting of two groups of nine and 15 state troopers as well as ATF Agents to combat gang activities in PA. Next, Waggoner discussed the PA Instant Check system. He said this system checks all background information on an individual when they are attempting to purchase a firearm. Waggoner noted that the County of Philadelphia's warrant database was not compatible with this system and felons were able to purchase firearms without any flags being raised. He offered that the Philadelphia warrant system has been updated and is now compatible with the PA Clean System, which is designed to perform background checks for gun retailers and for police officers. Waggoner also discussed how "straw purchasers," those who buy handguns illegally and sell them illegally, are a threat to the streets of PA.

Chairman Greenleaf asked how to stop "straw purchasers". Waggoner responded by saying that a good first step would be to make the penalty for committing this crime much more harsh and the penalty for not reporting a gun stolen or lost immediately harsher also.

Senator O'Pake then asked if the State Police interact with local police departments when they work with each other. Senator O'Pake also asked if adding the extra state troopers has any impact because it seems like so little. Waggoner responded saying that they do work well together and that using this task force in one region at a time is a good start.

Senator O'Pake then asked what the State Police could do with more funding. Waggoner said they could use the funding to help curb the straw purchases in PA.

Senator Washington then asked if there is a flagging system that would catch a straw purchaser. Waggoner said yes, if someone buys two guns in 5 days, it will send a flag into the ATF system and since the ATF is working with the PA State Police, that person would be investigated.

Senator Gordner asked how many convictions of straw purchasers the Commonwealth has had in recent years. Waggoner said that he did not know, but that he will get that information and respond to the committee.

Catherine McVey, Chairman, PA Board of Probation and Parole (PCCD), stated the objective of the probation and parole process is to reduce recidivism, which in turn "reduces violence and increases public safety". She explained the process PCCD utilizes in making parole decisions, noting it has several decision points critical to public safety and considers the offender's individual characteristics, needs and risks relative to the progress made while incarcerated. McVey stated research indicates that "resources should target stringent conditions of parole and links to community interventions on higher risk offenders." She added that parole revocations are reserved for those offenders who are a threat to the community, as prematurely revoking parole results in the reduced likelihood of successful community reintegration. McVey also discussed PCCD's involvement in various urban projects designed to address violence and that PCCD shares intelligence with several law enforcement agencies, including the FBI and US Marshalls. She stated, "Key to our preventive actions against urban violent is to pro- socially maximize our offender's time - we expect parolees to work."

Senator Gordner remarked that we put statutes on the books, but they always seem to get plea-bargained away. Chairman Greenleaf then asked about the policy if parolees get caught with a weapon. McVey said that their number one rule is no weapons. She continued to say that if a parolee is caught with a weapon, he is immediately sent to prison.

Senator Gordner asked if there were any specific statistics that show the relationship of a person charged with a firearm offense, who is on parole, and gets caught with a weapon and is sent back to jail. McVey said that the rough estimate is 50% of persons who are charged with a weapons violation are returned to jail due to another weapons violation.

Senator Earll asked if people who are convicted of violent crimes are treated differently than those who do not when on parole. McVey responded saying that they are scrutinized more than parolees who are not convicted of violent offenses.

Senator Gordner asked if there are programs in place to help local police. McVey said there are programs in place to help local law enforcement track persons on parole and probation more effectively.

Senator Costa remarked that in Allegheny County there have been discussions about reforming the court system and making cases involving parole and probation be heard by a magistrate. McVey remarked that doing that does not make any sense.

Lt. Mark Talbot, Vice and Criminal Investigations Unit, City of Reading Police Department, commented that there are far too many officers losing their lives. He talked about a fellow Reading Police officer, Scott A. Wertz, who was shot and killed in the line of duty in August 2006. Talbot noted that the violence in Reading is fueled by the drug trade. He offered that anyone who possesses an illegal firearm should be convicted and sent to jail with no plea bargain. He suggested that if an offender is arrested in eastern PA he should be jailed on the opposite side of the state so criminal activity with acquaintances behind bars is not an issue.

Senator O'Pake asked if the alleged shooter in the murder of Officer Wertz was on parole. Talbot said yes. Senator O'Pake asked what percentage of people who commit these types of crime are on parole. Talbot said 75-80%. Senator O'Pake asked what percentage is on parole for a previous firearm conviction. Talbot said 60-65%. Senator O'Pake asked what can be done to combat this type of incident from occurring. Talbot said the only way is to have more police officers on duty. Senator O'Pake inquired if there is a need for police officers in schools due to the young age of some of the offenders. Talbot said yes.

Chairman Greenleaf asked what the relationship is between guns and drugs in Reading. Talbot said the drugs fund the gangs who use the guns. Chairman Greenleaf asked if there has been an increase in gangs. Talbot said yes there has been in the last three to four years. Chairman Greenleaf asked about the project state neighborhood that was mentioned. Talbot explained that project safe neighborhood is a federally-funded project aimed to curb gang and gun violence. Chairman Greenleaf then asked what more money would be used for if it was appropriated. Talbot explained it would be used for salaries of more officers.

Senator Costa asked what Talbot would suggest to slow the flood of guns onto the streets. Talbot suggested that the investigators should focus more on the people who buy the guns, the girlfriends and the families and then prosecute more severely. Senator Costa inquired if another document that is signed during the purchase of a gun would make this tracking easier and if he supports prosecuting people more severely who do not report their guns stolen immediately. Talbot said yes to both.

Mark Koch, President, Fraternal Order of Police (FOP), State Lodge, argued that law enforcement officers should be provided with appropriate manpower, resources, tools, equipment and training to meet the challenges they face. "For Pennsylvania to truly address escalating urban violence, elected officials need to make law enforcement a top priority," he stated. Koch also recommended consideration of a resolution that would create a task force of lawmakers to continue to study and report on the issue of urban violence.

James Malloy, President, FOP Fort Pitt Lodge #1, stated urban violence in Pittsburgh has caused businesses to close, people to stay off the streets, and witnesses to turn away out of fear for their safety. He also noted there is a back up of criminal cases before the courts and the Allegheny County jail system is overcrowded. He suggested the following solutions:

· Hire more police officers

· Create a state organized witness protecting program

· Get the community involved through their clergy and senior citizen groups and gets their prospective on how to overcome the violence in their communities

· Support neighborhood youth activity groups

· Involve the State Police Drug Task Force with local police departments in dealing with drug problems

· Provide funds to police agencies fighting the organized drug problems in the neighborhood

Robert Eddis, President, FOP Philadelphia Lodge #5, made the following recommendations:

· Maximum sentencing for straw purchase buyers and sellers

· Penalties and gun forfeitures if the legal owners of weapons fail to report lost or missing guns

· Ensure that liaisons and representatives of all involved agencies are coordinating their efforts through a joint state and federal task force

· Provide the officers on the streets the necessary equipment to fight the everyday battles

· Track the arrest of everyone in violation of any gun legislation by forming a database

· Place the same priorities on guns as those that are now being placed on drugs

· Set mandatory sentencing requirements on any and all violations of weapons in the performance of any crime

· Ensure that educational programs and public service announcements are mandated and implemented

· Require that the person who owns a gun must be educated to the laws of violations as well as the application of safety

Chairman Greenleaf asked Malloy about the cause of the lack of officers. Malloy responded saying that Act 47 limits the City of Pittsburgh to only 900 police officers. He said they should have at least 1,000 to be able to operate effectively. Koch added that all the cities in PA have the same problems. Eddis remarked that there is a similar situation in Philadelphia, although the main issue they are having is straw purchasing.

Chairman Greenleaf remarked that the Fraternal Order of Police should present to the committee how many officers are needed statewide. He then asked the FOP's thoughts on state task forces in areas of exceptionally high violence. Eddis responded by saying that the task forces worked well in Philadelphia but they also need the additional officers to stay on the street after the task force is done. Koch remarked that he would be happy to work with the committee to coordinate anything that would help curb the violence. Chairman Greenleaf asked Koch what he thinks about the task force idea. Koch responded that he thinks it is a very good idea but training is also needed so that the officers know how to protect themselves.

Eddis added that the city of Philadelphia had a repeat offenders program and a study was conducted while the program was in place. He said the study that was done in the subway system showed that when certain areas were targeted crime decreased significantly. He also remarked that sending the criminals away from their hometown jail is a better idea than keeping them close to where they were arrested.

Senator Costa remarked that in the surrounding areas of Pittsburgh some communities do not pay for police protection that they receive from the State Police. He said the money that is being spent should be paid for by those areas and that would allow money to be channeled into the communities that need the extra police protection.

Senator Costa asked where the system is breaking down, specifically inquiring how straw purchasers are allowed to go unnoticed. Eddis said gun ownership comes with responsibility. Senator Costa asked what happens to the majority of people who say they lost their gun. Eddis said they have to take their word for it but legislation should be made saying that there is no plea bargaining for persons known to be straw purchasers. Malloy remarked that a way to tell if a person is a straw purchaser is to have them bring in all the guns that are registered to their name, if only one is missing then obviously they are not a straw purchaser, but if they have 100 missing that should raise a few questions. Senator Costa remarked that is an interesting theory.

Koch then commented that we need officers with specific training and equipment, which they have neither of currently. He said we need to take a stand against the assault on police officers.

Edward Marsico, Jr., District Attorney, Dauphin County said District Attorneys are removed from the frontlines unlike the police officers who see the problems from a different view. He said that much of the root problem is drug and alcohol abuse. Marsico said in Dauphin County there has been funding provided to employ a gunshot detection system that will deploy an officer in three to five seconds in the event of a gunshot. He noted that this system will only be in places throughout the city of Harrisburg where gunshots are prevalent. Marsico noted that this system will hopefully make the criminals refrain from the use of guns, allow the police to reach the scene of a crime to save the victim more quickly and to apprehend the suspect in a shorter amount of time. He added that the city of Harrisburg has seen some success with Project Safe Neighborhoods throughout Dauphin County but the best way to relay the message about the seriousness of a gun charge is through public outreach. Marsico said "gun toting thugs" need to go to jail. He said that when the fear of violent crimes is present, local business are hurt and he added that Harrisburg, as well as Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are in need of more police officers. He noted that HB 1198 and SB 1002, both dealing with gun control, specifically regarding violent offenders and drug convictions, are much needed. Marsico commented that they are seeing a lot of defendants who, as minors, had repeated gun and drug charges, but cannot be sentenced as repeat offenders due to their crimes being committed as minors.

Senator Costa thanked Marsico for his suggestions and asked if there are many occurrences of criminals having a record as minor. Marsico said yes there are, adding that his was very shocked to find out that even though they cannot be charged as repeat offenders their juvenile record can be used in sentencing.

Senator Costa asked if straw purchasers should be prosecuted in a federal court. Marsico said the main concern when a violent crime occurs is the user of the gun, not who bought the gun, so the person who bought the gun is almost always put on the back burner. He noted that in Harrisburg the problem is that criminals do not need to use straw purchasers because the guns are already here. They are on our streets and can be bought less than 10 blocks from the capital. He commented that punishing persons who are straw purchasers will solve some of the problem and it will make a legislative answer to do it. However, he said that he does not see it has a solution in Harrisburg where the guns are already on the streets.

John Hohenwarter, State Liaison, National Rifle Association was next to testify. He started by saying the NRA stands opposed to any legislation such as the one-gun-a-month or waiting periods. He commented that they are however opposed to any felons carrying guns. He said zero-tolerance should be used for criminals why carry guns, use guns or get caught with guns and drugs. He stated every criminal with a gun should go to jail, no discussion or appeals. Hohenwarter said studies have shown that if there is mandatory jail time for a person committing a crime while having a gun in their possession they tend to not carry the gun for fear of more jail time if caught. He concluded that the made for TV government that manufactures laws and does not enforce them gives criminals the idea that they will not get caught.

Chairman Greenleaf asked Hohenwarter's opinion of straw purchasers and how they should be punished. Hohenwarter responded that PA already has some the toughest laws, it is already a felony. He said the individual, if convicted of straw purchasing, is liable for any civil damages that a judge may award. Hohenwarter questioned if these laws are being enforced or if they are just on the books. He remarked that there are plenty of tools to help the ATF and the local authorities to catch these criminals. He went on to say that if the ATF knows when someone is buying more than one every five days, they should investigate them every time. Chairman Greenleaf asked what if the ATF runs into a person who buys and sells a lot of guns but is not a straw purchaser. Hohenwarter said there are tools to be used to do a thorough investigation. Chairman Greenleaf asked if Hohenwarter could send them a copy of the NRA's zero-tolerance proposal. Hohenwarter said that we would send it to the committee.

Senator Stack asked about straw purchasing statistics in Philadelphia. Hohenwarter said the NRA is stonewalled by the county government every time they ask for statistics. He added that you cannot legislate human compassion, and offenders who commit crimes with firearms should be incarcerated. Senator Stack remarked that he is tough on crime and he agrees with House Speaker John Perzel's initiative to put 10,000 new police officers on the streets throughout PA. Hohenwarter responded saying there can never be too many officers, but he suggested that more than police are needed to solve the problems in Philadelphia.

Barbara Montgomery, President, PA Million Mom Chapters of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, stated the Brady Campaign wants to create an America that is safe from gun violence. Urban violence is moving into the suburbs, she said, adding that there are far too many guns on our streets. Montgomery explained that SB 1002, which limits the purchase of handguns to one per month, would severely hurt the straw purchasers and slow the influx of guns onto the streets. She concluded by saying that the city of Philadelphia should be allowed to make its own gun laws, and even though there are not many gun shops in Philadelphia, there are over 300 in the suburbs surrounding the city.

Senator Stack then commented that Lou's Loan sold guns in Upper Darby for 15 years and over those years it was estimated that over 60% of the guns used in violent crimes in the city were supplied by that shop. Montgomery said that is correct. She added that 12 handguns per year is enough for a responsible gun owner. She also commented that the federal legislation prohibiting the sharing of information between law enforcement agencies will hurt the cause of tracking straw purchasers, and also saying that officers can receive jail time if caught. Senator Stack remarked that it is amazing that there is such legislation.

Melody Zullinger, Executive Director, PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), stated PFSC has "adamant opposition to any new laws that would add unnecessary restrictions to the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens." She opined that legislation limiting the purchase of guns will be ineffective because criminals do not acquire their guns legally and suggested that the Committee focus on legislation to"prosecute the criminals relentlessly, and to impose tough sentences with no time off or good behavior." She stated those states that have one handgun a month rules have not experienced an end to the black market of guns or straw purchases of guns. Zullinger also argued that stronger preemption laws are needed and requiring the reporting of lost of stolen guns will lead to straw purchasers reporting the gun as stolen when they actually sold it to a person ineligible to purchase a gun himself. She stated an assault weapons ban is unnecessary, as these weapons account for few than 1% of crimes involving a firearm. Zullinger concluded by reiterating the importance of incarcerating those who break the law and not simply punishing law-abiding citizens.

Chairman Greenleaf asked how many guns the average gun owner buys per year. Zullinger said they would buy as many as possible if they could but it is far too expensive. She said most do not buy more than one a month, excluding collectors. She commented that it is the principle of being limited that she opposes.

Phoebe Sheftel, Presbytery of Philadelphia, presented the Presbytery of Philadelphia's resolution on the "one handgun a month" legislation. Sheftel explained that the Presbytery of Philadelphia is the regional governing body of the Presbyterian Church USA in the southeastern region. She noted that on July 25th, the Presbytery of Philadelphia voted overwhelmingly to adopt a six- part resolution favoring enactment of statewide "one handgun a month" legislation. She said that as Christians and Presbyterians it is their duty to seek the safety of all their neighbors which is why the resolution has been adopted. She concluded that they are glad to take a leading role in gaining the involvement of the state's faith community and proud to be here today to advise the legislature on the Presbytery of Philadelphia's decision.

Alan Krug, PhD, urged the members to pay attention to the cost/benefit analysis of any proposal considered. He suggested that gun control legislation is ineffective, especially without resources to prosecute violators. Regarding whether PA should trade its instant check system in favor of the Federal system, Dr. Krug stated the federal system was inadequate at the time PA adopted its own system, but it costs more to operate a separate state system and overtime the federal system has improved. He stated, "If we went to the federal system, we would save a ton of money. In terms of cost effectiveness, we should probably do it. But we would not want to make such a move it if mean abandoning all the checks that our system provides". Dr. Krug also discussed one gun a month laws, noting that South Carolina repealed its statute because it did not reduce firearm crime but did restrict the rights of law-abiding citizens. He noted that one gun a month laws are intended to prevent straw purchases, but argued that documentation to verify the proliferation of straw purchases is unavailable. Lastly, Dr. Krug reviewed the many federal firearm laws and stated "the statutory tools exist at both the federal and state level to deal with illegal gun purchases…We believe that it is feasible to more effectively enforce the comprehensive state laws", which will require the cooperation of law enforcement agencies at all levels in following up on the multiple sales forms now submitted by licensed firearm dealers.

Steve Blackburn, President, Ex-Offenders of Community Empowerment, stated previous attempts to curb violence have failed and urged the Committee to consider proposals to attack the roots of violence by removing guns from the hands of criminals. As a former offender, he stated he knows that removing guns from criminals will dilute the elements that go into committing a crime-will, ability, and opportunity. Blackburn advocated for laws that require a gun owner to secure a gun whenever it is not in his control and report a lost or stolen gun.

Wayne Jacobs, Co-Founder of Ex-Offenders of Community Empowerment, reiterated Blackburn's statements, arguing that if a gun is not available, the crime most likely will not happen. He cited interviews with offenders and stated 98% of those offenders reported that they would not have committed the crime if they had not had a firearm. Jacobs argued that people who illegally give guns to offenders should be held responsible for their actions because they are the ones that created the crime. He urged the Committee to focus on stopping illegal access to firearms by supporting gun locks and the reporting of lost or stolen guns.

Ann Satterthwaite testified on behalf of the Pennsylvania Prison Society. She stated "a yearlong examination of the inner workings of the penal facilities by the Commission on Safety and Abuse in America's Prisons recently concluded ' what happens inside jails and prisons does not stay inside jails and prisons. It comes home with prisoners after they are released and with correctional officers at the end of each day's shift.'" This finding indicates, she continued, the need to make prisons a place that emphasizes education, job training, life skills and citizenship; not security and punishment. Satterthwaite also argued that a long-term strategy must be developed around parenting and child rearing, stating that "too many parents are too young, too immature, too tired, and too poor in spirit to inculcate positive value systems in their children."

Chairman Greenleaf commented on Satterthwaite's interesting perspective, remarking that current laws aren't making a log of progress. He conceded that Satterthwaite's recommendations are needed in addition to strong law enforcement.

Larry Frankel, Legislative Director of the American Civil Liberties Union of PA, cited Providence, Rhode Island, as an example of a city where crime has decreased, largely as a result of community policing and the full staffing of the police force. Other studies, he continued, have found that information sharing, communication of a deterrence message, and enhanced supervision are key elements of successful community policing strategies. Frankel also said tough enforcement and the creation of real educational, employment and recreational opportunities led to a reduction in the number of juvenile murders in Boston. He suggested strategies such as encouraging social service providers to locate in the areas that really need them and providing more support to treatment courts. He expressed support for SB 374, which would enable more counties to begin putting mental health courts in place. Lastly, Frankel urged the Committee to reject minimum sentencing standards, laws that would make it more difficult to obtain employment, and law that would take away the right to vote.

Rod Cusumano, Director, PA Rifle and Pistol Association, noted that the PA Constitution states the right to bear arms shall not be questioned. He argued that studies indicate gun control disarms law abiding citizens more than criminals, stating that states with concealed handgun laws have had a drop in gun violence. He said criminals become emboldened with increased gun control. Cusumano cited recent terror incidents and stated now is not the time to restrict one's license to carry a firearm, as restrictions will aid criminals and increase crime. He recommended that law enforcement be given the means to enforce the law and prosecute criminals.

Joel Cody, Spokesperson, Philadelphia Guardian Angels, said nearly 300 individuals have died in Philadelphia this year as a result of gun violence. He remarked there are too many guns on the streets and cities are being flooded with cheap guns. All guns begin as legal, Cody stated, and therefore have a paper trail. He offered the Committee draft legislation that would require the following:

· All gun owners must have liability insurance and maintain that policy

· All owners to undergo psychological evaluation

· All firearms must be inspected annually to ensure they are in proper working order

· Any stolen or lost firearm must be reported to the police and insurance company

Cody commented that revenue from insurance premiums on guns could be used to fund outreach.

Chairman Greenleaf asked about Guardian Angels coming to Philadelphia. Cody replied there were some problems initially because some Guardian Angels are licensed to carry, but they are working out the problems in interest of having a successful chapter in the city. He remarked on the need to stem the proliferation of illegal guns in Philadelphia.

The Committee also received written testimony from Tom Knox, of Knox for Philly, and Lake Research Partners.

Brian Hinkle, PLS Intern, and Kimberly Hess